Best way to get things done... Softly, but persistently?

[HPark]

I am wondering how many agree... that noise and disruption is not the best way to achieve progress on most matters

[JEFF LAM YUET]

yes, agree, IF there is a reasonable respondent, over the last 6 years, nothing much has been achieved, even the current DOC isn't really speaking for us, but a good fight with residents' support can deliver so many improvements in the last 12 months.

e.g:
tender box
refund of pre-operating fee
proposed refund of MR on capital fund comfirming in June
change of accounting firm
appointment of legal advicer
winning in tendering of a life service company for up to 60% saving in SVC
proposed retendering in CC about cleaning and security
change of "in-house" third-party insurance
change of general insurance
fight rights for second mortgage owners, etc. etc.

Seeing is believing. It all depends on who you are dealing with, if MTR, then.......................well, you know it.

[kent]

I am wondering how many agree... that noise and disruption is not the best way to achieve progress on most matters

HPark,

Good topic.  I agree that soft persistence is more my style, but it is idealistic and naive to think that this technique alone will conquer all battles.  Perhaps it is more the "ideal" way vs. the "best" way to get things done.  I mean, who doesn't want a perfectly peaceful world without war and dispute? (Yeah, weapon makers  )

Jeff's comments about little / no progress in 6 years vs. significant progress in 12 months is really proof in the pudding.  Although very likely, it is still not yet proven that he has a personal political agenda (hence, I am not on the Jeff Lam team), but I am all for progress and logical thinking.  As representing the people is not always logical, so long as he is making good decisions and educating the people, I will not hold Jeff Lam back and will continue to cheer him on.

[Icarus]

I'm with the cunning & guile method rather than outspoken confrontation. Not that I shy away from a heated argument but the most effective politicians seem to be the ones that form coalitions with opponents, negotiate and concentrate on the war rather than individual battles.

Jeff has a lot of valid issues to raise but when dealing with a corporate giant like MTR you need to be a little more subtle and use the existing rules and law against them. Making emotive statements with or without corroboration and behaving as he did at the meeting, does not make him appear rational and plays right into his opponents hands. What he suspects maybe true but his approach is little more than ammunition for them to discredit him as an unreasonable zealot.

The major cause for lack of change here in CC is individual owner apathy and very much self inflicted. Frequently there are insufficient numbers bothered to vote or attend to provide the quorum required so OC's and DOC simply don't get elected. This gives MO free reign to manage unopposed. I think the DOC has only been going for less than 12 months due to this very problem and that is a very short time in politics.

The DMC is comprehensive and gives sufficient powers to control management and other issues. MTR are well aware of how vulnerable they are so use the DMC to the letter to filibuster adverse policy. The only reason they can do this is due to our lack of support so accusing OC or DOC for being toothless is as much a result of us not empowering them with teeth as anything else.

If Jeff is serious in his campaign, may I suggest he mobilises his supporters to get as many proxy votes as he can when a similar situation arises? Then when he stands up with hundreds of proxy votes, MTR will not only be forced to listen but also realise he is a credible adversary. Getting elected to the OC by the owners would also show he  has legitimate public support.

[JEFF LAM YUET]

thx for the advice, all inputs are very valuable. DMC is drafted by MTR itself so I have all reasons to believe that Mo knows it very well. I am doing both ways at the moment with residents' support, media coverage as well as legal actions taken to fight our rights. Whether being an OC or an owner like now, I will still do my best for our rights, and I always need you guys' support, thx everyone. Let's work together to improve the estate management. I shall see you all in the English meeting on 8/4.

[kent]

I'm with the cunning & guile method rather than outspoken confrontation. Not that I shy away from a heated argument but the most effective politicians seem to be the ones that form coalitions with opponents, negotiate and concentrate on the war rather than individual battles.

Yes, which is why I am not made out for politics.  Backstabbing is not my cup of tea. 

pip pip, cheerio
 

[garyhk]

It seems to me as a newbie to CC that the only way to manage the myriad of dog related issues, for example, will be the gentle but firm deployment of peer pressure.

Is there a dog owners group?  I am certain that the vast majority of dog owners are responsible; everyone must understand that kicking dog crap to the side is a wrong thing to do - education is not required, people know it, otherwise why kick it in the first place.  I think that lecturing people also may not work, but peer pressure, especially by those dog owners who are responsible could be effective.  The suggestion of a dog management plan is also interesting but really I feel that this is a bit of over engineering for a straight forward problem.

As I am new to all of this, I may be approaching this in a naive way -- there really should be no need for so many people to fall out with one another over something which should be so straight forward to sort out.  In any society, it should also be noted, there will be people who will never comply with acceptable standards.  I suppose that in this case it is all about assessing the scale of the issue and acting reasonably to determine a solution.  The main thing is to do something...

[kent]

Well said. As usual, easier said than done. You are new, so it will take some time.  Discussing ideals is fine. You sound like the deli lama    After all that, what is the proposed solution?

It seems to me as a newbie to CC that the only way to manage the myriad of dog related issues, for example, will be the gentle but firm deployment of peer pressure.

Is there a dog owners group?  I am certain that the vast majority of dog owners are responsible; everyone must understand that kicking dog crap to the side is a wrong thing to do - education is not required, people know it, otherwise why kick it in the first place.  I think that lecturing people also may not work, but peer pressure, especially by those dog owners who are responsible could be effective.  The suggestion of a dog management plan is also interesting but really I feel that this is a bit of over engineering for a straight forward problem.

As I am new to all of this, I may be approaching this in a naive way -- there really should be no need for so many people to fall out with one another over something which should be so straight forward to sort out.  In any society, it should also be noted, there will be people who will never comply with acceptable standards.  I suppose that in this case it is all about assessing the scale of the issue and acting reasonably to determine a solution.  The main thing is to do something...

[garyhk]

I have never been compared to HH the DL before... haha.

If it was easy I guess it all would have been sorted out by now and I fully accept that discussing ideals is all well and fine.  Promised solution?  Well, I guess I mean something like the following:

1. If anyone sees a dog owner not cleaning up when they should be then one should be prepared to suggest that they clean it up - especially those kickers mentioned (rather than moan out of ear shot - this is an assumption);

2. If there is a noisy dog on your floor or nearby, feel empowered to go and speak with the owner politely.  Owners largely won't want their pets to be causing distress to others and they will often dote on their little family member so in theory everyone should be pulling in the right direction.

I doubt that either of the above would provide instant resolution of such ingrained, ongoing unacceptable behaviour.  I would hope, though, that if enough people do these sort of things in a reasonable manner then natural human instinct would click in and then the presumably few that misbehave may bit by bit change their behaviour.  It is the people not the dogs after all.  We all do need to live alongside one another and nobody, I think, wants to live with ill feeling and upset.  It may all sound idealistic, even naive and it won't win all battles for sure - but it may just make a difference.  That's the sort of thing I was thinking.

Perhaps later I will fully appreciate the challenge of getting these things changed. 

[kent]

I have never been compared to HH the DL before... haha.

If it was easy I guess it all would have been sorted out by now and I fully accept that discussing ideals is all well and fine.  Promised solution?  Well, I guess I mean something like the following:

1. If anyone sees a dog owner not cleaning up when they should be then one should be prepared to suggest that they clean it up - especially those kickers mentioned (rather than moan out of ear shot - this is an assumption);

Good suggestion.  However, people who don't pick up generally do it when no one is there to witness.  I can tell there are people who look around before they pick up the dung and have caught these people in mid-thought. So it's ideal, but not often practical.

2. If there is a noisy dog on your floor or nearby, feel empowered to go and speak with the owner politely.  Owners largely won't want their pets to be causing distress to others and they will often dote on their little family member so in theory everyone should be pulling in the right direction.

I doubt that either of the above would provide instant resolution of such ingrained, ongoing unacceptable behaviour.  I would hope, though, that if enough people do these sort of things in a reasonable manner then natural human instinct would click in and then the presumably few that misbehave may bit by bit change their behaviour.  It is the people not the dogs after all.  We all do need to live alongside one another and nobody, I think, wants to live with ill feeling and upset.  It may all sound idealistic, even naive and it won't win all battles for sure - but it may just make a difference.  That's the sort of thing I was thinking.

Perhaps later I will fully appreciate the challenge of getting these things changed.  

You make good points and I think this ground has well been covered.  Ultimately, it comes down to individuals.  With this, it becomes a matter of education and individual principle.  How long have you lived in HK?

[garyhk]

Yes, I know what you mean kent, but I am eternally optimistic.  I have lived here in HK for 12+ years and I do hope for the best. 

The dog owners where I have lived most recently in Mid Levels are all very good.  The 'authorities' either district council or some central department deep clean the areas where the dogs pee quite regularly; there are plenty of dog waste bins around the area.  Does CC have this kind of service?

One issue which is only slightly related, but is an interesting observation, is the process of asking domestic helpers to 'walk' the dog.  I don't know what most owners expect but I doubt it really involves standing around and chatting and then dragging the poor creature behind them, sometime when the poor mutt is in mid pee...  Initially amusing but ultimately disappointing but alas not really surprising.  I could never ask a third party to walk or take care of my dog on a regular basis.  But I do understand we are all different...

[kent]

Yes, I know what you mean kent, but I am eternally optimistic.  I have lived here in HK for 12+ years and I do hope for the best. 

The dog owners where I have lived most recently in Mid Levels are all very good.  The 'authorities' either district council or some central department deep clean the areas where the dogs pee quite regularly; there are plenty of dog waste bins around the area.  Does CC have this kind of service?

One issue which is only slightly related, but is an interesting observation, is the process of asking domestic helpers to 'walk' the dog.  I don't know what most owners expect but I doubt it really involves standing around and chatting and then dragging the poor creature behind them, sometime when the poor mutt is in mid pee...  Initially amusing but ultimately disappointing but alas not really surprising.  I could never ask a third party to walk or take care of my dog on a regular basis.  But I do understand we are all different...

GaryHK,

Really appreciating your honest perspective here. 

Combined I'd say there are enough waste bins, dog toilets & special orange animal waste bins for people to use.

With regard to the owners of pets who have helpers do the walking, that is not for me to say.  I wouldn't tell someone else how to raise their children, so why would I tell them how to raise their pets or run their household?

When I see that a helper is not giving the dog enough time to do their business, I can only feel sorry for the dog.  Just as when I see a parent allowing their kids to run amok or misbehaving.  No parent or pet owner is perfect.  One can only do their best and that is it.

If there could be police handing out tickets or cameras catching people and shaming them in public, that would be great.  This is an old idea brought up long ago that has yet to be agreed with or implemented. 

[garyhk]

True, I would not like people to comment about how I run my household, but some things are just 'not right'.  I write this in the full knowledge that most everything can't be perfect.  It is just frustrating...  Like you I worry for the dogs who are innocents in all this after all.  Don't get me onto maids and children ....

Police handing out tickets etc?  Mmmm, that seems a bit too much like a police state for me. In the UK I know they have been experimenting with manned CCTV - meaning that when one of the operatives sees litter being dropped or other anti social behaviour they can, through the CCTV attached loudspeaker, communicate with the 'offender' and shame them into picking up their litter.  It's interesting but a bit too Orwellian for my linking.  As we have written elsewhere, soft peer pressure ought to be the way forward for MOST of these anti social issues.  We should also remember that circumstances can sometimes interfere with our desire to do our best.

[kent]

True, I would not like people to comment about how I run my household, but some things are just 'not right'.  I write this in the full knowledge that most everything can't be perfect.  It is just frustrating...  Like you I worry for the dogs who are innocents in all this after all.  Don't get me onto maids and children ....

Police handing out tickets etc?  Mmmm, that seems a bit too much like a police state for me. In the UK I know they have been experimenting with manned CCTV - meaning that when one of the operatives sees litter being dropped or other anti social behaviour they can, through the CCTV attached loudspeaker, communicate with the 'offender' and shame them into picking up their litter.  It's interesting but a bit too Orwellian for my linking.  As we have written elsewhere, soft peer pressure ought to be the way forward for MOST of these anti social issues.  We should also remember that circumstances can sometimes interfere with our desire to do our best.

The CCTV and loudspeaker sounds like a good solution since there are plenty of cameras already.  Not sure if you can see clearly through some of the trees.  The loudspeaker will become an annoyance (I think it will), but the requirement of a person to sit/stand watch will be a financial burden that some people wouldn't want to carry.  Perhaps a recording of the perpetrators advertised in the bazaar played over and over?

I think that would be fun for some to watch!

[Icarus]

We've got more than enough CCTV already which you would appreciate if you ever go the security office. Unfortunately offenders captured by CCTV cannot be immediately be intercepted & identified by mobile patrols because the majority of available manpower is deployed at Tower Entrances.

Mobile deterrent & enforcement. v static monitoring, the old conundrum. Which do you chose if you can't have both?