Reduction of management fees Questionnaire

[Muttley]

I saw an amusing questionnaire today asking if I thought I was paying to too much management fees, should they be reduced to 8% from 10%, and if MO say no should we do something about?

Given those simple alternatives who in their right mind would disagree?

Notwithstanding that the lax wording offered fewer alternatives than a North Korean Polling slip, I am a little concerned that we seem to be embarking on a head to head confrontation with the MTR Goliath. I just hope the OC don't consider this flawed questionnaire to be an open mandate to go to war.

Don't get me wrong I hate the useless MO arses but they are formidable opponents with deep legal coffers. Given their obvious reply, I suspect as owners we will soon be dipping into our reserves to pay our legal mercenaries. The management fees are part of an agreed contract which I don't think allows to change just because we now don't like it. Perhaps the outcome is debatable but as with all litigation, it will be long and costly.

By all means fight the good fight but don't let emotion or principle overide commercial common sense.

A similar 2% saving could just as easily be saved from the budget by tighter OC control & scrutinising the wastage that goes on.

I know which battle I would fight first.

[JEFF LAM YUET]

this is a joint action with another 10 MTR-managed estates all over HK. I know that the question is silly but the meaning is serious. We speak, act for you by collecting your voice then combine with other estates to plan for bigger, further joint action for the benefit of us residents. Thanks.

[Muttley]

this is a joint action with another 10 MTR-managed estates all over HK. I know that the question is silly but the meaning is serious. We speak, act for you by collecting your voice then combine with other estates to plan for bigger, further joint action for the benefit of us residents. Thanks.

Can you win given the contracts? If so go ahead for me but please give us a little more detail.

[charles]

I'm getting scared here

[garyhk]

If the cause is just then fighting as either 1 estate or 10 estates is meaningless.  The weight of argument ought not to rest on how many towers are fighting for redress but whether the quest for redress is right or wrong.

I too would feel a bit worried about such escalation; it certainly has all the hallmarks of a legal fees feeding frenzy.  If I may also add, it's shameful that matters have progressed to such a degree requiring such heavy handed action.

I am somewhat new to all of this but it seems to me to be a pity to resort to legal redress; this is surely only going to waste Owner's funds.  Any costs incurred by the 'other' side [sorry I have not yet got my head around who is the "enemy"] will presumably be added to their management charge for recovery in due course.  Seems a little bit like chasing our own tails.

Not sure I have an answer; perhaps just urging caution. 

This may be a silly question, but do Owners have their own union or representation?  It seems silly, also, to telegraph Owners views, thoughts, desires, wishes and tactics where anyone can read them.  Just another thought.

[Muttley]

If the cause is just then fighting as either 1 estate or 10 estates is meaningless.  The weight of argument ought not to rest on how many towers are fighting for redress but whether the quest for redress is right or wrong.

I too would feel a bit worried about such escalation; it certainly has all the hallmarks of a legal fees feeding frenzy.  If I may also add, it's shameful that matters have progressed to such a degree requiring such heavy handed action.

I am somewhat new to all of this but it seems to me to be a pity to resort to legal redress; this is surely only going to waste Owner's funds.  Any costs incurred by the 'other' side [sorry I have not yet got my head around who is the "enemy"] will presumably be added to their management charge for recovery in due course.  Seems a little bit like chasing our own tails.

Not sure I have an answer; perhaps just urging caution. 

This may be a silly question, but do Owners have their own union or representation?  It seems silly, also, to telegraph Owners views, thoughts, desires, wishes and tactics where anyone can read them.  Just another thought.

Each phase has an owners sub-committee (OC) and these are combined to form the Development owners committee (DOC). The DOC have an elected duty to every owner & like all representatives have to be transparent in their actions so there can be no secrecy. In time you will see some of the OC/DOC are not over endowed with subtlety or cunning guile anyway.

This forum is for open discussion and to air your views. DOC members read it and hopefully so do the management Office. From experience it's a far better way to communicate issues than writing to MO which are then stonewalled.

[garyhk]

Thanks for the background; that's very useful.

Happy to air what I think; involvement is better than tutting on the sidelines.

[Icarus]

I have read the DMC & can see no legitimate reason why MTR (MO) could be compelled by a court to reduce their fees during the course of their contract.

Of course I would love a reduction as well. MTR could accede as a sign of good faith which would be both as ironic as unlikely. However on the strength of the agreements currently in place, I think the MTR legal counsel will tell them to stand firm.

Where do we go from there?

By all means ask the question but before legal action is commenced the OC/DOC must convince the owners of of the legal merits of any action they propose.

Perhaps OC might like to consider a simpler alternative of removing them as managers by owners vote. By applying the terms within Section H, Sub section. 2(b) of the DMC & then re-tendering?

[garyhk]

That sounds like a better approach to me.  Initiating a re-tendering could well be the answer.  I assume all Owners get a copy of the DMC?

I was thinking to suggest that perhaps what may be needed is a statement of requirements of owners - like a Mission Statement or Business Requirements Statement.  It may take some time to devise, but a list of facilities needed, with a list of management goals to which the newly tendering OC would need to comply with and be assessed against for their performance.  No harm to pay a bonus for 'O'utstanding or 'E'xcellent Performance and penalty for 'I'mprovement Required and dismissal for 'U'nsatisfactory - something like that anyway. 

Surely the Owners are the ones who should be calling all of the shots as it is Owners money that pays for everything.  Money should be power - I guess it isn't but it should be.  Perhaps Owners could go on strike by not paying the Management Fees - this might focus attention as a final escalation / leverage.

[Icarus]

I got a copy from my vendor when I purchased. If you don't, try the MO as they certainly have access to soft copy.

Then again I am probably being optimistic. There's probably a rule why you can't have one, MO don't like anybody knowing the rules.

Best of luck

[giantsean]

Icarus if we find no joy at the MO (I also do not have one) do you think it is easily scanned and distributed?  Legalities aside I mean.

[Icarus]

Trouble is that it's about 70 pages!!!!

Big scanning job & huge pdf file?

[garyhk]

There must be a 'soft' copy of it somewhere....  I shall see what i can find out.

[prisms]

There must be a 'soft' copy of it somewhere....  I shall see what i can find out.

did you try http://web3.mtrchome.com/usr/mcontrol ?

normally all the MO's downloads are available there.