Language skills rant

[Fust]

Well, it seems that the discussions/rants here may have had some effect.
I had to make use of the hourly car park on Friday, as my regular wheels were occupied by someone else, and I noted that the octopus equipment had been "sort of fixed".  I say "sort of" as the receipt printer wasn't working, but it's already a 95% improvement on the previous 2 years.  Of course, they still have a guard sitting there, picking his nose, but that's stage 2, I guess...

However, the lady at the info counter (outside Park 'n Rob) could not answer my question about the needed receipt.  In fact, she was unable to string 2 or more words of English together into a coherent sentence.  My Cantonese is limited, although I do try to make an effort, but it far exceeded her English abilities.  So, we got absolutely nowhere and I took the $100 dollar loss and gave up.

Question:  Why does management hire people with zero language skills for front-desk positions?  Did I miss the memo dealing with the phasing-out of English as an official language in Hong Kong?  I received a nice purple Cheung Kong brochure the other day spouting the joys of "Night Shopping".  Problem was; apart from the words "Night" and "Shopping", there was nothing else in English.  Does CC Bazar not want my money, or do they think that all gweilo's are rich and don't need coupons or promotions?

It still puzzles me that I run into young people on an almost daily basis, who seem to have no ability or interest in learning English or any other 2nd language (except perhaps Mandarin).  The vast majority of Singapore and KL residents speak fluent English, and a lot of them even speak Cantonese and/or Mandarin, so I noted.  So why not in Hong Kong?

Puzzled....

[Poppet]

I think it's a shame for young people not to take advantage of learning a second language if offered to them but to be honest i find it odd for you to rant about Hong Chinese people's lack of English skills. You live in there country and it is up too you to learn the local language rather than expect them to know yours so you can communicate with them. I doubt there would be many UK, Australian, American people in there home countires that could deal with a question in cantonese if asked in a supermarket, shop or restaurant.
Just my take on things

[Fust]

I think it's a shame for young people not to take advantage of learning a second language if offered to them but to be honest i find it odd for you to rant about Hong Chinese people's lack of English skills. You live in there country and it is up too you to learn the local language rather than expect them to know yours so you can communicate with them. I doubt there would be many UK, Australian, American people in there home countires that could deal with a question in cantonese if asked in a supermarket, shop or restaurant.
Just my take on things

Actually, where I originally come from, children are taught (starting as early as mid-primary school) to be fluent in our mother tongue as well as close-to-fluent in English*.  At secondary level, a minimum of 3 years (4 hours a week) of German and French language classes are added, in an effort to give the young generation a well rounded education and allow them to communicate with as many people as possible overseas.  Classes in Spanish, Italian, Russian and Mandarin are often optional in most schools, depending on demand.
Also, programmes on television are not dubbed (with the exception of kiddie shows) but subtitled, so kids can naturally improve their foreign language skills while watching TV.

I personally made an effort to learn Hangul while I was based in Seoul, and still try to make an effort to improve my Cantonese level, although I find that local people would generally rather laugh at the "tone-deaf gweilo", rather than help and encourage.  Such is life...

But I think you misunderstand my point.  The issue is not whether foreigners living here can- or will make an effort to- learn the local language.  The main issue is that these generations of uni-grads now entering the workplace are deprived of chances to develop themselves on an international (business) level, because they lack the basic skills of a 2nd language, and that is the real shame here.
Hongkongers are generally intelligent and hard working people, and should be given the right tools and skills to compete on a level playing field.

And my rant was directed at MTR management, not any individual or group in particular.  Of course MTR should hire people based on qualifications, skills and experience, and not necessarily discriminate on language abilities.  However, if you do have staff members who can't string 2 words of English together, such as the lady in question, do NOT put them behind an information counter...! 

Of the colleagues on my own staff, some are good in English, some aren't.  The ones that aren't proficient are not tasked with communicating with foreign suppliers or customers.  It's not rocket science...



* Edit:  I should add here that, unlike in Hong Kong, English isn't an official language in my country of birth.

[Netboy]

However, if you do have staff members who can't string 2 words of English together, such as the lady in question, do NOT put them behind an information counter...! 

That's right!

It won't happen if CC management really care about customer services.

[mango on the run]

It still puzzles me that I run into young people on an almost daily basis, who seem to have no ability or interest in learning English or any other 2nd language (except perhaps Mandarin).  The vast majority of Singapore and KL residents speak fluent English, and a lot of them even speak Cantonese and/or Mandarin, so I noted.  So why not in Hong Kong?

Puzzled....

no puzzle....by and large, some people are relying on polititians for their welfare and benefit. Eventually you will have a whole generation in Hong Kong who do not take their destiny in their own hands...I heard a vicious narrative of how education is conducted in this city. The teacher's union in Hong Kong headed by law maker Cheung Man Kwong, by far is the most powerful cartel in Hong Kong. In stead of striving to offer quality education to students, all they do is to make sure teachers keep their jobs, and receive rising pay, in the face of dwindling student population. What we are seeing is a government keep pumping ever more money into education, and schools keep turning out substandard students...This is really sick and pathetic. Yet the villains cloak their selfishness under the slogan of equity for the students 

[Gooner]

After having lived here for over 10years, I don't see any change coming. The problems with linguistic skills starts at school. Text books are in English, but the subject matter is taught in Cantonese. That's why you guys probably notice written English is far better than spoken. Also, thanks to the Digital Diary Translator, it worsens their ability to put together a 4-5 worded sentence, gramatically incorrect or not. Apart from the inability to speak, a part of the issue also revolves around the unwillingness from within to assist a Gweilo or anyone who appears to be a foreigner.

In regards to the car park issue, is the Management even aware that it's been over 5 months that the card reader to the Monthly car park is out of order. There's a guard there (picking his nose),who asks you your which tower/apartment info in Chinese. I mean, look at my face - do I look like I understand what you're saying ? Why do they give us the CC parking labels if they stop to ask who you are and where you live ? And again, why place someone there who needs to speak a bit of English for us to get in or out.

This whole Management outfit is a bunch of losers. The Clubhouse refuses to open at 6am (they claim additional costs to the tune of 60K if they do so), one small gym for 15odd towers. Imagine if one person from each tower came to the Gym at the same time... that would be some fun because there aren't 15 different pieces of equipment. Then, the 3 BBQ pits, no designated car washing area. I could go on and on. Try making you're point to these losers, it's water on a ducks back. A point to note is that in Year 2007, CC financials reported us having a 52 Million surplus. I guess that's why we can afford to have a guard outside every block leading you to the portion of the octopus card reader like we would never have known how to use it.

[Fust]

52 Million surplus?   

You'd think they could afford to fix/replace the car park system and build that bike rack a lot of people would like to have...

[mango on the run]

52 Million surplus?   

You'd think they could afford to fix/replace the car park system and build that bike rack a lot of people would like to have...

wow! Divided by 5000 households we each can get over 10k back

[mango on the run]

After having lived here for over 10years, I don't see any change coming. The problems with linguistic skills starts at school. Text books are in English, but the subject matter is taught in Cantonese. That's why you guys probably notice written English is far better than spoken. Also, thanks to the Digital Diary Translator, it worsens their ability to put together a 4-5 worded sentence, gramatically incorrect or not. Apart from the inability to speak, a part of the issue also revolves around the unwillingness from within to assist a Gweilo or anyone who appears to be a foreigner.

This just shows how much you do not know about what have happened in secondary education in Hong Kong in the last 10 years...There have been two policies with profound ramification. One is the compulsory adoption of cantonese as medium of instruction in 3/4 of the local schools. Another is the reduction of students banding from 5 to 3.

The first measure supposedly reduces students exposure to English. In my opinion if teachers teaching English are doing a good job then this adoption of cantonese to teach non English subjects does not necessarily weaken students English ability. Ask yourself how often do you need to use vocabulary you picked up attending physics, maths, biology classes? I blame the quality of the English teachers more than anything else.

The second measure mixes bad apples with good apples so that the good apples turn bad more easily...One must recognize that in any society there bound to be some people who can only manage to complete an education in order to sell hamburgers or cook or pump gasoline. By having 5 bandings our education bureaucrats recognizes that there are differences among students. By having 3 bandings our education bureaucrats try to act Robin Hood and try to convince people that the students have more similarity than differences...The quality issue of students in local schools is aggravated by disppointed but well off parents sending their kids off to local international schools or to study abroad. But they do so with a perilous consequence...Their kids do not have good Chinese skills which put them at a competitive disavantage down the road...

Just how many expatriate parents who want their kids to pick up Chinese, I wonder          

[Fust]

Just how many expatriate parents who want their kids to pick up Chinese, I wonder

You might be pleasantly surprised there, probably more than you think...
Of course it all depends on the age of the kids, and how long they're here for, but I see an increase (at least in my social circle) of long term foreign residents sending their kids to Cantonese/Mandarin classes, or even local schools.


Of course, the hefty yearly increases in ESF- and Int'l school fees, may be an added stimulus in that respect...

It's certainly an advantage for them, in case the kids decide later in life to do business in Greater China, or make it their home...

[mango on the run]

Just how many expatriate parents who want their kids to pick up Chinese, I wonder

You might be pleasantly surprised there, probably more than you think...
Of course it all depends on the age of the kids, and how long they're here for, but I see an increase (at least in my social circle) of long term foreign residents sending their kids to Cantonese/Mandarin classes, or even local schools.

Of course, the hefty yearly increases in ESF- and Int'l school fees, may be an added stimulus in that respect...

It's certainly an advantage for them, in case the kids decide later in life to do business in Greater China, or make it their home...

My advice to such parents is, get your kids to marry a Chinese partner I certainly see this trend of foreign kids going to local schools and understand why. One in my social circle professes it is very attractive if he can send his kid to a good program with one of the good local university. The quality is good, and the cost is very reasonable. But for families with both parents not speaking Chinese, the challenge is certainly enormous, because Chinese is a more difficult languange than English, it really does not have a well defined gramatical structure like English does. You just need to learn it by using it all the time. By way of intruduction I speak native mandarin and cantonese. My English is okay If you happen to know someone who need advice or assistance, I am sure we can work out a solution, not necessarily involving money..

[Gooner]

Well said, Fust.

I for one who recognizes the value of spoken Chinese would encourage my kids to learn and grab every linguistic opportunity that comes their way. As a child, I had to choose French as a second language in school and it was great. Good apples / Bad apples, it's upto one's own interest to grasp and these attributes are inborn. Either way you look at it ... an extra language is a feather in one's cap.


  

[mango on the run]

Chinese does have a well defined grammatical structure.  It is just that a lot of Chinese people do not have good grammar.  I was surprised when I spent time in Beijing studying that it exists and that a lot of people have poor chinese grammar.

Are you a non Chinese? Those grammars are made up for foreigners so that they feel they have a measured progress Yes I was taught the concept of subject, object, predicate etc at school, but these concepts are imported into the Chinese languange from western languanges. If you say a lot of Chinese people do not have good grammar, that can only mean those are not important and people do not need to follow those rules. Can a foreign student of Chinese language criticise and correct people their mistakes, and expect people to listen?.  

[Gooner]

Sorry Mango, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

[mango on the run]

Sorry Mango, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

There are some "textbooks" for foreign students learning Chinese. For Chinese people learning their own languange, a lot of the time we do not need to specifically spell out those rules and they are non-existent in our textbook. Those rules appear in those "textbook" because the author referenced some other books. For example, there is no distinct "tenses" in Chinese but some of the books teach people tenses in Chinese...